"Sometimes pain and humiliation can be for your own good"
An Interview with Henry Jenkins






Amy: Welcome back, Okinawa fans! After a bit of a hiatus, I'm back with another post-game interview. Following Christopher's excellent example, these interviews are conducted in a chat setting, allowing you an off-the-cuff perspective of some of Okinawa's most memorable characters. And boy, do I have one for you today, so let's introduce him right away.

Henry Jenkins was one of the more controversial characters in the Okinawa cast, building an alliance within Sato right away only to cause friction within it shortly thereafter, and finally break it apart as he was given the power to do so through the Outcast twist. His unorthodox way of communicating with his tribemates still has people talking.

Welcome to the elusive Henry Jenkins! We've got a lot to cover, so I hope you don't mind if I get started right away.



Henry: Not at all.



Amy: First off, was your experience in Okinawa what you expected it to be?



Henry: Okinawa was nothing like I expected it to be. I was worried people wouldn't be active in the game. But they were more active than even I could keep up with. I thought it would be easy. It was incredibly hard.



Amy: So you didn't expect people to be as hardcore as they were?



Henry: Not really. I was sure a few would be. But so many of these projects fall apart that I had low expectations. I thought some people would only log on once or twice, others wouldn't be good at roleplaying. There would be all this immature Internet stuff. Nope. These guys came to kick my *ss.



Amy: I was surprised by that too... I thought we'd all be easygoing. I found out fast that you had to play or be played!



Henry: You really did. You couldn't trust anybody for a second. It was manic, frantic, violent, passionate hair pulling.



Amy: So you say that the caliber of gameplay surprised you... what else happened that was unexpected?



Henry: My mother and I argue about Survivor all the time because she thinks the contestants are naive, they're clueless, they make obvious mistakes at every turn. And I agree. But I think the situations they're put in are so far beyond what she's imagining that their actions aren't nearly so stupid as they seem. And I knew that even though this was Internet Survivor it would be far more brutal in terms of second, third and fourth guessing your actions both before and after you take them than most people would imagine. That you would constantly be imagining that every step would be a fatal step. And yet... there's a difference between knowing that's going to happen mentally and truly knowing on an emotional level what that's like. You can know that people in the third world are going through hell on Earth. But I'd never claim to truly know what that hell is like. Not even a taste of it. Not a clue. And on a much, much smaller level Survivor's the same way. Nothing prepares you but experience, and by the time you've experienced Survivor it's too late.



Amy: Can you give me an example of a time when you second, third, and fourth-guessed your own actions?



Henry: Sure. In my final days on Okinawa I had the opportunity either to make an aggressive move against my long time rival, you, and paint a huge target on my back or to trust someone for a little while longer who I couldn't trust, let you get further in the game and open myself up to the possibility that you could make a move against me. I knew the new Satos would take any and every opportunity to get ahead and that if I wasn't willing to make a deal you might. And I wrestled with that. Because I knew I wanted you out of the game even more than I wanted to stay in the game. I just went around and around on it. But I eventually made a decision. And it was the wrong one.



Amy: To this day, I'm still surprised that you never made an intentional move against me post-switch.



Henry: Doesn't mean I didn't think about it. But I wasn't going to say a word until I was sure. So I never did. Cause I was never sure. Can't put that stuff back in the bag. Either you say it or you don't. Period.



Amy: That's very true.



Henry: Besides, how could I make a move against you? I wuv woo! ;-)



Amy: LOL! You didn't at the time!



Henry: No. I really, really didn't.



Amy: Now, you knew that the twist was coming, and it happened just as you said it would. Is there anything else that played out just as you predicted?



Henry: Umm.... I knew that our camp would fall completely to pieces and we'd start losing the challenges if we didn't get more organized. So I pushed and I pushed and I pushed. And people told me to shut up and Anna and Mario laugh at me to this day because we were so inept around camp.



Amy: Why do they think they laugh at you because we were so inept, if you were the one pushing?



Henry: S'not fair, is it? They just like to bust my balls, though. It's not really any more complicated than that.



Amy: Okay. Well, speaking of the hosts, they came up with the good vs. evil division of original tribes... How do you feel they did in dividing up the cast members? Anyone get put in the wrong place?



Henry: Oh of course. More people were put in the wrong category than the right. I still have to stop and think about it to try to remember which was good and which was evil. We were evil, right? Wait. No. We were good?



Amy: No, Sato was supposed to be the good guys.



Henry: Oh. Well then I'm flattered. But... Wait, how on Earth was Joni not a good guy? I mean what's your definition of good guy that doesn't include Joni?



Amy: Joni and Elisabeth knew one another before the game began, so Mario couldn't put them both on the same tribe. Elisabeth was put with us because her whole application was sweetheart central. So Joni got thrown to the wolves.



Henry: Oh. Right. Right. Right. LOL. This is awful. I sound so clueless. Okay. So can I talk to you as part of the interview and not just the other way around?



Amy: Absolutely.



Henry: If Elisabeth's whole application was sweetheart central - why were you so threatened by her? You told people over and over that she was a player and not to be trusted. But I fell right in love with her (platonically speaking). I still look at her and see the sweetheart, the teddy bear.



Amy: She *was* a player, Henry. She was ready and willing to make her own plans and her own alliances. She didn't want to play by your rules, or she would've joined the alliance without Lance. But she didn't. She had her own ideas. And when I knew you were attached to her, I knew she was dangerous to our alliance of 5... you trying to save someone who wasn't one of us revealed split loyalties, and that made more people than just me nervous.



Henry: No. You're so wrong. She didn't join the alliance without Lance because she was so, so sweet that she couldn't play the game right. She was the ultimate pagong. She'd truly rather have been voted out than to have had to vote out anyone. Elisabeth and I both essentially threw ourselves to the wolves to protect someone we'd just met because we liked them so instinctively and felt so protective of them.



Amy: I do believe she's a sweetheart now. I just wasn't about to take anyone for granted or overlook anyone out there. That's just the way I played. I've already said that the first boot was a mistake.



Henry: Who should the first boot have been? Me?



Amy: In that situation, that's what I thought was best, yes. I felt threatened by a lot of what you said and did around camp. But I already answered that in my own interview. This is about you.



Henry: But this gives me a chance to respond.



Amy: Sure, you can do that now if you like.



Henry: America is dying to see Henry Vs. Amy: The Reunion just as much as Rich and Sue. Well, maybe not quite as much. But for the same reasons.



Amy: *laughs* I'd hope they wouldn't want to see that!



Henry: I feel absolutely terrible about being solely responsible for the loss of the first challenge. But I still don't believe - even putting my personal bias aside - that I should have been the first one to go. I don't mean to rehash old arguments. But I had Sato's best interests at heart more than anybody. I wanted to make us strong in every way we'd need to get through as a tribe to the end. I was devoted. I had foresight. I had loyalty. And I had the stats to be stronger in the challenges than almost anyone else. The trouble is you just couldn't have known any of that at the time.



Amy: From my point of view, Henry, you were disruptive in the tribe. You had a loyalty to someone who was not in your alliance, and that made a lot of people nervous (not just me!) that you wouldn't put us first when it counted. And Elisabeth WAS trying to take any way out she could... she tried to form an alliance with Lance, Beth and I. So the two of you together was dangerous, and one of you needed to go. And yes, due to many things, we didn't know that you had loyalty or strong challenge stats. But the first boot is often an uninformed decision. You said it yourself; we all played scared.



Henry: Hogan was a bump on the log. I don't have a problem with the guy personally. But I wanted him gone because I didn't believe he deserved a spot in the game. And I still don't. But I always believe be it about the show or Okinawa that those who are never immediate threats are by far the most dastardly and dangerous players in the game. I knew Amber would win Survivor: All Stars even before the spoilers came out. It's not just Hogan. It's everyone. Season after season.



Amy: Hogan's gameplay is the topic of debate even now. Some could say that he gave the game to Kamiya. But at the time, he wasn't an immediate threat, so he stayed. Either way, there are cases why any of the 8 Satos should've been the first boot, including myself. We'll be here all night if we try to go over it all. So back to the questions, if you could pick a tribe of 8 out of the Okinawa cast, who would be on it?



Henry: For what purpose? For entertainment value? For unity? For an easy win? What?



Amy: You tell me. That's your call.



Henry: Okay. Let me think. I'd want David McDaniel because he brings the total package to the table. Strategy, sweetness, strength and loyalty. Practicality. Genius. I'd want Joni and Elisabeth because the sweethearts are always the unifying forces. The calming presences. At least, well, in every case except the one that screwed me over. But call me naive if you want, I'd choose her for my tribe again without so much as a second thought. I'd want Lance because he's loyal and strong and he's never gonna win. If you take him to the final four you're home free.



Amy: *laughs* Why would you say he'd never win?



Henry: Because he reminds me a lot of Matteo. He's very intelligent. But he's terrible at getting others' respect. Amber won because as unthreatening as she may have seemed people respected her for it. Matteo got slammed because he had no such charm. Lance is the Matteo.



Amy: I see where you're coming from.



Henry: Good. I'm glad you don't agree actually. Remember, he was one of my favorites. But anyway....



Amy: Maybe the optimism in me would like to see a good guy win, but you're right; the jury has to vote for you. I do agree.



Henry: You're saying I'm not a good guy? LOL. Anyway... I'd choose Matt because I'd rather have an opponent I can trust to serve their own best interests (making them predictable and easier to negotiate with) than someone irrational (who I could never trust.) Michelle because I respect the heck out of her. And again I'd trust her to stab me in the chest instead of the back, making it a fair fight. She was a hard worker, smart. She had great strength of character.



Amy: Now that is valid. She does make it a fair fight.



Henry: And I'd choose..... Danielle because as terrible as I'd feel about it I would need someone to shove onto the chopping block before I myself was shoved. And I wouldn't have to shove her very hard.



Amy: Interesting idea. But you're right, someone has to go first.



Henry: Poor Danielle. Poor, poor sweet Danielle.



Amy: You make her sound like a puppy!



Henry: She was kind of. But I like puppies.



Amy: Reading the episodes, who was your biggest ally? And who did you think it was at the time?



Henry: I was dead right. I thought it was David McDaniel at the time and I still do. Well, David and Lance. But David knew how to help me in a way Lance didn't. So he was strategically the better ally.



Amy: But David was ready to sell you out in episode 3.



Henry: Nawww. He thought about it. He was so mad he was ready to. But he always calmed himself down. He always cooled his head and came back to me.



Amy: What about nemesis? Who was your biggest one, and who did you think it was at the time?



Henry: I thought it was you, Amy. I respected your charisma and your leadership skills and I was very threatened by you. In my mind you were like McCarthy. "Henry Jenkins is a communist! HE MUST BE STOPPED BEFORE HE CORRUPTS ALL THAT IS RIGHT AND GOOD!" But really... I'd say Christopher. Because I actually trusted him every step of the way. And he was aggressively trying to tear me apart. I never suspected.



Amy: You never thought he was going after you?



Henry:: No. He was just that good a player.



Amy: He certainly is a good player. He knows what he wants and goes after it.



Henry: You're very smart, Amy. But you were not as subtle as Chris.



Amy: No, nor did I try to be.



Henry: You couldn't completely hide your passions the way he could. You weren't cold.



Amy: Again, I wouldn't want to be. So thank you.



Henry: The reasons I respect Christopher as a player are the same reasons I can't be his friend. He is cold blooded. He is a killing machine.



Amy: Thank you. I think there's a little of both in everyone, though. Chris has his sweeter side too! Watching the episodes, is there anybody you would not have cast on the show?



Henry: Hogan..... Hogan. And Hogan. And Beth.



Amy: Beth? Hogan doesn't shock me, but Beth?



Henry: I like Beth. Beth is sweet. Beth is very sweet. But she's not the boldest, most Earth shaking character. She's my friend. But I think she stumbled through the game and followed you until she met a grisly end. Since I don't talk to most of the people anymore anyway I have nothing to lose by being honest. I wouldn't have cast Hogan or Beth because they weren't good players or good characters.



Amy: Watching the episodes, has anybody surprised you in a positive way with their strategy and/or confessionals?



Henry: A lot of people have. You, Christopher, Emma/Isabella... come most immediately to mind.



Amy: How so?



Henry: I never met Emma in the game. Never said a word to her. Barely have since (except a few really embarrassing attempts at flattery and flirtation). But the whole time I was in the game I heard people say that she wasn't a good player and that she was a relative non-entity. When I read the episodes I laughed until I cried. I loved Isabella. Her confessionals were worthy of the real Survivor greats and her strategy was so far superior to just about everyone else in the game that I'm still outraged she didn't win. It's just so satisfying to see how well she snowed people. And since we never met in the game I have no hard feelings towards her at all. Nothing personal. So I have the best of both worlds when it comes to appreciating her game from the inside and out.



Amy: Okay. That is a valid point... you can still appreciate her because you never knew her in the game.



Henry: Shame on you for voting for Mike! Shame! Shame! LOL Shame on you for voting for Mike! Shame! Shame! LOL



Amy: Hey now, I voted emotionally, which you said you don't like anyway, so let's not go there.



Henry: *laughs* It's okay. I'm just teasing. I really don't care that much. But I would have voted for Isabella hands down.



Amy: Yes, I read the LL transcript. Has anyone surprised you negatively in their confessionals?



Henry: I'm sick of Chris and Murtz. I'm not hurt. I'm bored. In real life I love Murtz. But as a character on the "show" I just don't think he was as clever as he thought he was. Chris and Murtz weren't funny. They weren't cute or original. They were just bitter and loud and obnoxious. And boring. The ultimate Survivor sin.



Amy: *smiles* It just goes to show how people can have very different opinions. Many people found Chris and Murtz to be among two of the most entertaining characters of the first half of the season!



Henry: I know they do. And some people hated Richard Hatch (but I thought he was a genius the first season).



Amy: Now, this question is asked of everyone, so it's not just pick on Henry time... but did you find yourself having a crush on another castaway?



Henry: *blush* *grin* *giggle* Ummmm......... What do you think?



Amy: I'm asking the questions, you tell me!



Henry: To be completely honest I never had a big crush on anyone from Okinawa. But I had little crushes on almost everyone.



Amy: Define "little crushes".



Henry: I never, ever, ever would have gone there. And it wasn't a sexual kind of thing. But I was very, very sweet on Elisabeth. I wanted to protect her and be the big strong guy for her. The way you'd want to be strong for a girl you liked. It just wasn't dirty. I had a little bit of a crush on you. Even though you drove me crazy. Maybe because you drove me crazy. I didn't, like, have "feelings" for you. But I did feel an irresistible desire to flirt with you. Even though I wanted to kill you.



Amy: That sounds dangerous to me. I'm glad I didn't let you get too close!



Henry: I'm sorry you didn't slap me away sooner. I acted like a frig'n idiot. And I hurt your feelings. And I'm sorry.



Amy: Thank you. I'm sorry I didn't speak up sooner... it might have solved a lot of problems. I was just worried about it becoming a Ghandia situation, which nobody needed or wanted.



Henry: It wasn't serious to me. It was just kinda funny. I wasn't socially adept enough to realize it might be more serious to you. It's just such a waste because we get along so well now. It was just so stupid. But I admit it. I am a hornball and a flirt. And I can make a conscious effort to reign both in. But both are in my nature.



Amy: We also aren't in close quarters for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week anymore.



Henry: I'm twenty-two and I'm single and a little shy. But I'm very, very curious and just in love with the opposite sex. And as sweet as my intentions may be they can lead to my downfall.



Amy: Well, I'm glad it's an understanding now. Let's play around with some word association now... I'll give you a phrase or a word, and you tell me which castaway it fits. Ready?

Smartest?



Henry: Hmmm...... Sorry, I should respond more instinctively. There are just different ways you can be smart. It's such a tricky word.



Amy: First thought.



Henry: Joni



Amy: Out of Touch with Reality?



Henry: Lance. But that's not fair at all. Wait, wait. No. Let me change that. Me.



Amy: Okay.. Annoying?



Henry: Me too. LOL. Umm... Annoying to me?



Amy: Yes.



Henry: Beth



Amy: Okay... Fun?



Henry: Elisabeth



Amy: Trustworthy?



Henry: Lance, with my life.



Amy: Agreed. He was the best friend I had out there. Cutest?



Henry: What a question!



Amy: It can be appearance or attitude or anything.



Henry: Okay, okay, okay. I'll regret this in the morning. And I'm going to Hell. But Joni.



Amy: Okay, Joni it is. Kindest?



Henry: You. And that's an odd answer.



Amy: Yeah, it is.



Henry: Outside of the game.



Amy: Thank you, though.



Henry: You're welcome.



Amy: Toughest?



Henry: Michelle. Very feminine. And sexy. But very, very tough.



Amy: Amen.



Would you like to set the record straight about anything?



Henry: Hmmm. 1) Elisabeth. I did not have sexual relations with that woman. And I wouldn't have. But I'm really, really sorry even seeing how things turned out that I voted against her.
2) You and I are now friends.
3) I'm sorry I hurt you.
4) I did screw up the first challenge single handedly. And I didn't have a clue until much later. But boy did I feel like a schmuck.
5) I did not, do not and will never view Joni as a child in any way. When I said she reminded me of myself I meant that as such a sign of respect. And she just took it the worst possible way. She's never really been willing to be my friend since. I don't ask her to be. But I will continue to admire and respect her. She's one of my absolute favorites. And I'm sorry - no matter what my intentions - that I screwed up the possibility of a friendship with her. It's my loss. I just always kinda wished I coulda been friends with her. I still would in a heartbeat. But... I dunno. It just didn't work out. She didn't like me.



Amy: What about the tea ceremony? Can you tell us your side of what happened there?



Henry: I'd figured out what the twist was going to be before it happened. Twice. First I figured out that the person negatively indicated by one of the questions was going to be taken away from the tribe. And then I knew we'd be picking tribes. So I was on a roll and I thought I could see this whole thing unfolding. In my confidence I believed Mike would take Amy, Matt and Beth. Especially since he told me that's what he'd had in mind. I didn't say a word about David McDaniel the whole time. Not a syllable. So I hoped he might think David was generic. No one he'd want. No one of importance. I took a risk in protecting Lance that I could get them both. And unfortunately I was so quiet about David that Mike smelled my plan a mile off and took him.

David still blames me for not picking him. If I'd have known I could only have had one I would have taken him. But I made a gamble and it came up snake eyes. It happens.

I chose Joni and Murtz because I thought I had something in common with them and I truly wanted to form a new, solid tribe. Not sacrifice them. I needed new allies at that point. And then I chose Christopher because I knew very little about those remaining. All I knew was he was strong.



Amy: What was your absolute best moment in Okinawa?



Henry: Honestly?



Amy: Yes!



Henry: And this is going to sound egotistical. But finding out I was right and everyone else was wrong and the twist really was exactly what I'd tried and tried to warn them about the night before. When I realized that by voting for myself in all of the most demeaning ways on the questionnaire and getting Lance to do the same I really had outsmarted the system. I'd tried so hard to warn those guys. And they told me to shut up and go f myself. I was *SO* freak'n proud and so happy to know that I was right. I was so vindicated. And I had the chance to *screeeeeeeeew* them if I chose. Even if I didn't intend on using that privilege the irony was delicious.



Amy: Um, you *did* screw us. You told Mike that I was the Antichrist, for one.



Henry: *bursts into laughter* Ummmmmm... *giggles* *composes myself* Whoops. I'm sorry!



Amy: Uh, yeah. Suuuure you are.



Henry: That was an especially unfortunate choice of words for talking about such a religious woman too. Awww fuck.



Amy: There's another fine choice of words. What did you learn about yourself?



Henry: Mostly bad things. All the bad stuff no one says to my face in real life because they're too polite. I think Jerri was the one who called Survivor a "sobering mirror." It's a devastatingly sobering mirror. It made me try to change the way I interacted with others. But it also made me even more insecure than I already was. It really made me want to change as a person. I didn't want to be that guy.



Amy: That's a good thing though, right?



Henry: Yeah. It hurt. Bad. But it was ultimately a good thing. Sometimes pain and humiliation can be for your own good. It was humbling. I still to this day haven't really shown my face in the Internet Survivor community since and I'd been visible since The Australian Outback. Online Survivor stuff was my life to a depressing degree for most of college. But I was just too humiliated to ever come out in "public" again. And though Okinawa is in no way directly responsible, it was one of a lot of things in my life that led me to want to change who I was so badly that I've since become a really serious Christian.



Amy: And now, are you thinking that might change and they might see you again?



Henry: No.



Amy: Okay... would you go through the Okinawan Experience again?



Henry: No. Not a chance. Wouldn't even think about it. It was painful. It was humiliating. It was depressing. And it caused permanent damage to my relationship with the Survivor community which was something that I really valued.



Amy: Thank you for your time, Henry, and good luck with everything.



Henry: Thanks, Amy! Good luck to you too! :)




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