"I really wouldn't encourage anyone to run OR play in one of these things."
An Interview With Mario Lanza





Amy: Welcome back, folks! As always, there are no manufactured responses here, everything is off-the-cuff and candid. So sit back and enjoy some of THE best gossip from the cast and crew, straight from the man himself.

This is likely going to be the last interview of the Okinawa series, and we definitely saved the best one. Today we're going to spend a little time with the author of the Okinawa story and the main host of the game, Mario Lanza.

Mario is no stranger to fan fiction, having written Survivor stories set in Greece, Alaska, and Hawaii using some of the more memorable characters from previous Survivor series. His yarns are some of the most popular fan fictions on the internet. Couple that with a weekly column he's done on Survivor-Central.com for years, and it's easy to see why Mario's name is easily recognizable among Survivor fans in its own right. A year ago, he opted to play in an online Survivor game set in Tonga that was to be written into a story after its completion, but the story never materialized. This sparked an interest in Mario to complete a project that was of the same idea, but bigger and better in its scope. Now, months later, we're here with Mario to discuss his finished gem, not to mention his thoughts on the story, the game, AND the cast.


Welcome, Mario! Thanks for taking the time to dish. I'm sure you've got all kinds of information that the readers will love and the cast will hate, so shall we get started?


Mario: Ready when you are, Mensa. And as a side note, the cast won't hate this. They all secretly love this sort of thing.


Amy: Depends on what you decide to spill, doesn't it?


Mario: Um... but I spill it ALL! Ain't no picking and choosing here.


Amy: That's what we're afraid of...


Mario: *whistles innocently*


Amy: When you chose this cast of 16, were there any people cast that you were certain wouldn't make the merge?


Mario: Oh absolutely. Diane Ogden once told me something about the real show. She said that they usually pick a few "certain boot" players, just because they know they won't stick around long. I guess it makes it easier on production or something, so maybe they can only focus on a few storylines instead of 16... So yes, it was the same type of deal for me. There were a few that I knew wouldn't be around for long.


Amy: That would make sense, but do you automatically disregard those people in terms of storyline just so you have less to do?


Mario: No, not at all. I didn't approach it QUITE the same way. I didn't cast people just because I knew they would be dead meat. I cast because I wanted to read about them in a story. But there were a few, like Beth, Henry, Hogan, Joni... that I was pretty sure wouldn't be particularly important to the story. I didn't disregard them per se, but it was pretty evident who the stars would be once we started.


Amy: Was that your main criteria for choosing who was cast... wanting to read about them in a story? How did you choose us?


Mario: Well there are a couple levels of casting. At least the way that Anna and I did it. The first is the people who just jumped off the page at us. We didn't know how we wanted to use them, but we were certain we wanted them in there somehow. Christopher, Matt, Ryan, Amy, Danielle, Hogan were the big ones there. Elisabeth too. Those were the ones that were in just at first glance. I didn't even need to see a secondary application. They were in from one essay. They were the ones I knew would be fun in a story. Every one of them had charisma. And charisma is the most important thing to have.


Amy: Were you disappointed with any of those "first essay" folks once they were cast?


Mario: Well I wouldn't say disappointed but Danielle sure turned out to be a lot different in person than she did in her essay. We were expecting Jerri Manthey Jr.


Amy: Oh, wow. Really?!


Mario: Yeah. I remember she said she loved scheming and she hated preppy cheerleader types. We envisioned her going off on someone like Elisabeth.


Amy: Wow. Or Joni.


Mario: Like physically beating her into a pulp. So Danielle was ALWAYS on the evil team... We kind of considered her our ace in the hole.


Amy: *laughs* The first Survivor to be kicked off for physical contact.


Mario: Yeah! So yeah, we severely misjudged Danielle from day one.


Amy: Okay. Now the second part of the casting?


Mario: Part 2 of the casting was the people we had promised spots to before we even started: Isabella, Murtz, Henry. Those three had guaranteed spots in the cast even if they didn't know it. We didn't let on that they were already in. We made them go through the same process just like everyone else.

But between the first initial casting choices and the guaranteed spots... we had basically half the cast already. Everything else was just filling in the slots we would need.


Amy: What did those three bring to the cast that made them must-haves? I mean, I can guess the Isabella draw, but what about Murtz and Henry?


Mario: Okay... Isabella was obvious. I had promised her a second game basically as a favor to a friend. She had gone through some rough personal things at the end of Tonga and she and I both knew it had probably cost her a win. So I said I'll run another game, you can play under an alias, and you'll get your second chance. So really it wouldn't have happened without her. I didn't really care about running a game otherwise.


Amy: So the game was essentially for her?


Mario: Oh yes, I've said that since day one. She deserved to be a star and Rafe gave her the shaft. I felt Isabella should be known by everybody in the Survivor fan community. She was just that good. So I told her I would make her a star.


Amy: You've said that since day 1, yet you claimed that the other players in the game had no reason to be upset when they found out that Isabella's presence was the premise for the whole thing? Balance that out for me.


Mario: They were upset before they found that out. They were just upset that she was there period. I didn't tell them it had all been for her... I didn't want to get lynched! So I downplayed the whole "It was a game designed for her to play again" just to shut them all up for a while.


Amy: *laughs* You almost got lynched anyway, did you not? Comments like "This was supposed to be our game, not hers" and "You put a shark in our fishbowl!" popped up pretty quickly.


Mario: Pretty much. But it's hard to lynch somebody who will be writing your character for the next five months. A lot of people hid behind a smile for a while, knowing it's a bad move to piss me off when I'm writing... *cough* Henry.


Amy: Oh, yes. We'll definitely get around to him later.


Mario: But yes, the cast was very angry. Not all, but the more vocal ones.


Amy: How long do you think it took them to get over it?


Mario: I'm not sure all of them ARE over it... It didn't help that Isabella doesn't make friends with her castmates afterwards. She made it a hard sell.


Amy: Wow. That's a grudge! The game's been over for over 6 months now.


Mario: Yeah and Murtz wasn't even one of them holding said grudge! Murtz loved it.


Amy: No, he was too busy spitting nails at me over three doughnuts. He still hasn't forgotten.


Mario: I heard about that. It was very subtle, but I heard about that incident... I heard he only eats bagels now. Said doughnuts piss him off too much.


Amy: *laughs* So what did he bring to the cast? Why was he immediately added?


Mario: Well first off he is my boss. And he said if I didn't cast him I was fired. Just kidding.

Murtz is a big name in the Survivor community. I knew he would be HUGE in terms of promotion and fan interest. Plus, he is well known for being the meanest, nastiest, bad-ass S.O.B. in terms of Survivor strategy. He was gold. I needed to have him. Also, he really wanted to play after Tonga. He saw how much press Tonga got and he was very much interested in trying it out for himself. He was very very eager to play, though I always thought he would drop out before the game started, for time reasons. But yes, once he said he wanted in, I knew he was a shoo-in for the evil team. And that was BEFORE he even told me about the dead mom thing...


Amy: This is true. He's already got a name for himself... and opted not to use it! What was your reaction when he said he wanted to use an alias?


Mario: I didn't think he really needed one, but at the same time he very well could be targeted just for being my friend. I mean, not too many people knew Murtz's Survivor strategy since he doesn't write columns. So I didn't think it was mandatory, but I understood why he did it. As long as he would be "Murtz Jaffer" in the story I didn't care. Same deal as Isabella.


Amy: I can see it too. After all, some of us did know him from previous experiences, be they good or bad.


Mario: I can say I know Murtz in real life and he's a very nice guy. You've found that out too. But behind a persona... he likes to have his fun. But then again I suppose I can't talk...


Amy: Very true. He's not 100% Dave Roth, just as you're not 100% Nick.


Mario: Well to be fair he's closer to Dave than I was to Nick But yes, we're both pretty mellow.


Amy: What about Henry? Why him?


Mario: Well Henry was an interesting case. I've known Henry for a long time, and I've always known him as the world's biggest talker. You ask him about any topic and he has an opinion. Not only AN opinion, but THE opinion.


Amy: That didn't change once he was in the game.


Mario: But Henry was really big into Tonga. He wrote power rankings, he commented on the cast and I thought he would be dying for a chance to play Okinawa. Plus, like Murtz, he had a name in the Survivor fan community, which of course helps with fan interest.


Amy: So he was essentially cast for his name and enthusiasm?


Mario: Yeah and for the fact that I wanted to see him put up or shut up. You SAY you're a great expert on Survivor. Let's see it.


Amy: *grin* There wasn't a little of that with Murtz as well?


Mario: Well yeah of course. But both of them were so fascinated by Tonga that they both asked to play. It wasn't like I twisted their arms. I actually thought both of them would do better than they did.


Amy: No, I doubt you had to twist anyone's arm to apply. Playing a well-run game and having it turned into a story written by someone with your talent is a fantastic opportunity for someone interested in this sort of thing.


Mario: Thank you Amy. But you were already cast. ;-) This isn't an application essay.


Amy: Ha! I'm done flattering you. Now I'm just pointing out the obvious.


Mario: I know. I just have a fun time teasing you.


Amy: That must be why it happens so often. Now, with you thinking Murtz and Henry would do better than they did, what was your reaction when they both almost became the first victims of their respective tribes?


Mario: Well, once the game started it didn't surprise me at all. They both started out great but eventually both fell into the exact same trap: they both became "Survivor know-it-all". They both became the guy who told everybody on their team what to do. And since both of them had such a solid and respected past before, it wasn't surprising. Simply put, a lot of people walk into this game expecting that their teammates will all be worthless, like nobody else is playing hard except for you. I know I ran into that wall in Tonga. The only difference is that I am quiet, whereas Murtz and Henry were vocal. So they tried so hard to make sure everybody was playing as hard as they were, and they didn't realize the caliber of players they were dealing with.


Amy: Do you think either of them were appreciated for their knowledge, or were they just snubbed after they showed a strong tendency to lead?


Mario: They were both appreciated at first, but the honeymoon didn't last very long. 24/7 is a long time to spend with ANY dictator.


Amy: *laughs* That's the truth!


Mario: And to be fair, Murtz didn't do it all himself. Murtz had Christopher clipping his wings at every turn. Henry, however, did it all himself. As Hogan said famously: Henry got Henry voted out. So the difference is that Murtz didn't play poorly at all. He just played hard, and hard wasn't the way to go with the Angels looking for a scapegoat to sacrifice.


Amy: That still makes me laugh. Hogan didn't say much, but when he did, he was sheer comic relief.


Mario: Yeah Hogan was great. I was disappointed in Hogan for about 3 episodes, then he came to life with his one-liners. Hogan could even make Christopher laugh. And that isn't something that's easy to do!


Amy: I wish I'd appreciated Hogan more while being in the game itself. I didn't see that side of him at all until after the episodes started to air. So... after all that, we're still only left with half a cast. How did you fill the rest in?


Mario: The rest of the cast was filled in basically as to what the story needed. We needed a tough girl. Amy, you were tough but you were our Sato den mother. So Michelle was perfect. We needed a normal guy... you'll see that so many of the cast were schemers or scoundrels. We needed some contrast, and Lance fit the bill there. David also. In fact, I got David and Lance mixed up for a long time. I couldn't keep them straight!


Amy: Oh, really? Good thing you threw them both on the same tribe, then.


Mario: Yeah, I'm dumb like that. :-P I actually got Beth and Michelle mixed up for the longest time too, pre-game.


Amy: Wow, that's one I didn't see coming.


Mario: I forget why, but I know in casting I kind of lumped them together like "BethandMichelle". Like if we cast one, we cast both.


Amy: Michelle struck you as tough, and Beth's interview doesn't seem to portray that at all.


Mario: Beth had the thing about playing Everquest and being a kickass monk, so I saw her as having a bit of a tough side. Michelle punches basketball players, Beth decapitates goblins. Same deal.


Amy: Heh. I see it now. And it also makes me realize how hard it must be to cast people based on one or two applications. You never really know what you're getting.


Mario: Not at all. Casting is like a box of chocolates. A lot of the good ones sometimes look the same. Eat me, Forrest Gump.


Amy: Thank you, Gump. *grin*


Mario: That's all I have to say about that.


Amy: So you've got your cast and the game's on day 2 or 3. What surprised you the most in those opening days?


Mario: I was stunned at how fast people tried to make this game. Alliance! Alliance! Alliance! Backstab! Backstab! Backstab! People played it like a speed contest! Sato had multiple F3 deals by day two.


Amy: Once one person started it, everyone had to jump in for fear of being left behind!


Mario: Kamiya didn't surprise me at all. I cast them to be schemers and they lived up to it, but Sato went way overboard.


Amy: That we did. Deals were everywhere.


Mario: And yes, I know everybody plays scared on day one, but I don't think people realized this was a 2 month game. Nothing you did on day one would end up making a difference in the end, except MAYBE Chris and Michelle. That's about it.


Amy: I disagree. If I didn't make fast friendships on day one, I wouldn't have been saved over and over again later in the game by the likes of Matt and Lance.


Mario: But nobody knew Lance on day one. Him saving you came about later. Loyalty in this game is usually determined by common struggle. Two people fighting the same enemy. That's the only real way to make strategic bonds. It's like soldiers fighting in a war.


Amy: Nobody knew him on day 30.


Mario: And yes, I don't really know Lance to this day... so...


Amy: But yes, I see your point. Day one didn't make much of a difference by day 20-something.


Mario: Not at all. Both teams needed to work on their shelter and their camp life. Kamiya did it a little. Sato not at all. Kamiya had Mike, who was easily the camp MVP throughout the game.


Amy: Yeah, Sato was not a good camp tribe. Ever. You were starting to get a feel for who people were in the game, too. Any surprises there?


Mario: Well Danielle was a surprise, but I had figured out she wasn't a schemer the last few days before the game started. In a few last minute chats, I realized she was on the wrong team. I was surprised Joni fit in so well...that was the biggest surprise. Almost everyone I feel played about as I expected them to, but Joni fitting in surprised me the most.

Well, oh yeah, and that vindictive soccer mom on Sato that hated teenage girls. She surprised me.


Amy: *laughs* Joni was a good player, no doubt about that. And it takes a good player to be able to fit in on either tribe, which she did.


Mario: Absolutely. She never had any enemies.


Amy: She made the right people love her at the right times.


Mario: Well, except for you, but your dislike for her came and went. It never stuck.


Amy: I never disliked her as a person in-game, just as a thorn in my side strategically.


Mario: Yeah sometimes the key to Survivor is never have enemies. And she was the master of that. If Isabella hadn't taken her out, she easily could have won.


Amy: I'd have been interested to see her in a final two. Her gameplay was about as respected as Isabella's, so you never know.


Mario: She was better liked than Isabella but there were very few plans that originated as Joni's. It would have come down to the Neleh argument: Would you be happy losing to a chipper young Mormon girl? Soliantu wasn't. I don't know if Miyagi would have.


Amy: Depends on what said chipper young Mormon girl did in the game.


Mario: Well to be fair, Joni never offered a shared mint. But Neleh never backstabbed her pseudo boyfriend, so... we'll call it a draw.


Amy: *laughs* Agreed. And that'll be one of those relationships that nobody will ever really know what happened in, since there weren't any chats.


Mario: Nope, I haven't a clue.


Amy: What was the single-most stupid move made in the game? What just made you cringe, it was so bad?


Mario: Well I don't know if it was stupid, but Henry's kiss-off letter to Joni was about as bad as it came. Talk about cringe-worthy!


Amy: Ooh. That was definitely a bad one. But it served as bonding material before and after he left. I think it's safe to say that he helped solidify The Core.


Mario: As for strategic... Well I could narrow it down to three, but the catch is that all three are easily explained.

1. Sato not voting off Henry first
2. Matt not taking Isabella's deal
3. Michelle taking the dagger for Mike

All three could be justified, but in hindsight all three were horrible mistakes. A lot of people would say Isabella voting off Ryan, but Ryan has admitted he would have taken her out at the next vote. She just beat him to it. Some would say Hogan voting off Matt, but those two were never allies. They were complete strangers.


Amy: Yeah, Ryan would've taken her out as soon as I was gone. He just wanted numbers. She got there first. And Hogan and Matt... I'll never understand why they never really tried to ally.


Mario: Yeah so they were both Satos... big deal. They never had a chat the whole game. It couldn't even be called a betrayal.


Amy: Forgive me for being a big advocate of "work with what you're given" after the twist.


Mario: Well for YOU it was a betrayal, but for Hogan... it was his best move. That's the key to remember when reading these stories. There are 16 plotlines, not one.


Amy: True. He probably didn't see a way to the end with Sato, and Joni could've been promising him the world.


Mario: Joni was his best friend. They were very close, despite what he says now.


Amy: Just like Michelle was Joni's?


Mario: Well the catch is that Joni never TOLD Hogan she was his best friend. He more or less latched onto her. Michelle told Joni repeatedly that she was her best friend. Neither one was a deliberate screw job. Neither Michelle nor Joni wanted to off their friends, but I felt Joni walked into it more blindly. Hogan at least knew he was going.


Amy: Yes, his short and sweet chat with Emma let him know that he was going.


Mario: Yeah but he knew before that.


Amy: Yeah, I e-mailed him as soon as I figured out what to do.


Mario: His FU was just after a long day of frustration. Sometimes FU's take a while to build up. A lot of times they start as DU's or SU's... Damn you. Screw you.


Amy: But his was a full-fledged F U. Poor innocent Emma, catching the brunt of it all.


Mario: It was. I give him credit for it. Anytime someone tells Isabella to F off, it's a highlight in the story.


Amy: Hmm. How many times did it happen in Okinawa?


Mario: Only Hogan. Michelle wanted to, but she never did.


Amy: Hogan did it in words, but Michelle and Matt both did it in their actions.


Mario:: Oh yes. Isabella generated some very real heat in this story. It was great.. .they legitimately didn't like her.


Amy: She was hard to like!


Mario: It brought back fond memories of Tonga. Yeah Isabella's odd in that she's so developed and easy to relate to as the host, but she gives NOTHING to the players. No one has any clue who she is. The same thing that makes her such a good player (detachment) is the same reason nobody cares for her afterwards.


Amy: A lot of us still don't know her.


Mario: It took me a long time after Tonga to know her. And I still don't know her last name or what she does all day... And I probably know her better than ANYONE.


Amy: But I think she ended up making friends with some of the cast members. So it's better than in Tonga, where most of them didn't want to know her.


Mario: True. She did try more after Okinawa, and she had some tenuous friendships for a while. She tried to do a lot of things differently this time around. Befriending the cast was one of them. Of course, there have been other difficulties she ran into after that...


Amy: Other difficulties?


Mario: Well this is some incredibly juicy, interesting gossip from behind the scenes. I'm sure nobody would be interested...


Amy: Spill it, already.


Mario: Well okay. It's kind of a long story but the main point is that Isabella is no longer speaking to me, and because of that she is no longer contributing to Okinawa or talking to ANY of the cast members. The fact that she is the only cast member without an Early Show is not a coincidence.


Amy: It's kind of a long story, but we've got all day. What happened? You had to know I was going to dig.


Mario: Well basically, she was putting together an All-star version of Okinawa. It was supposed to be for Tongans, Okinawans and new players. She and Matt and a writer from S-C, Ryan Crist, had been putting it together for months. I had agreed to play, basically because she had agreed to be in Okinawa. It was a tit for tat type of deal.


Amy: Everyone was excited about it. It seemed like every cast member I spoke to wanted in.


Mario: Yeah it was probably going to be a big deal, but the PROBLEM is that Okinawa ran long. I was supposed to be done in mid April and I ended up going a month late. This cut into the start of Isabella's All-Star game. We had a lot of discussion about how I was going to handle this and by the time All-Star started I realized it wasn't going to work. I couldn't go into silence period for All-Star when I still had stuff to do for Okinawa, so I regrettably had to drop out. And when I dropped out, other people dropped out. Then Isabella quit. And... well... she hasn't spoken to me since.


Amy: You dropped out before the game actually began though, didn't you?


Mario: Yes I dropped out the day before silence was supposed to begin. It was like a week before the actual start date. I felt awful but there wasn't anything else I could do. It was Okinawa or All-Star, and I would make the same choice again.


Amy: What about the other people involved in the game, like Matt or Ryan Crist? Did they have anything to say about your decision to drop out?


Mario: Well I've heard Ryan Crist hates my guts. Matt actually thanked me though. He said All-Star was becoming a pain in the ass to plan and he privately thanked me for doing what I did. I think a lot of people were relieved it fell through, but that wasn't my intent. I thought it could have gone on without me. I just wanted to finish my story.


Amy: How did you take it when you heard that others had dropped out or were contemplating dropping out after you did?


Mario: I didn't take it. It wasn't my decision, that was theirs.


Amy: Not flattered in the least?


Mario: Well sure. But at the same time, now I can get blamed for it, since it was essentially caused by me quitting. But I don't know if they dropped out to support me, or because they wanted to trounce me! So I better be carefuil with how I answer that! And I'm looking right at you, Twieg.


Amy: Yeah, but imagine how bad it might've been if you were the only reason why these people were playing, and then you got voted out first anyway. What would they do?


Mario: That's true. I didn't think I'd last very long. I'm a little too visible a target by this point.


Amy: And for the record, I'd have supported you... until you got in my way.


Mario: Yay! I'd be a temporary bullet shield! I'd be a Beth! But yes Isabella sent me one really long angry email and that's the last I've heard from her. Nobody has heard from her since then. That was early May.


Amy: Does it sour the Okinawa experience for you at all, knowing that you ran this game for her and now she's shunning it?


Mario: Of course. since it was written and run almost entirely for her in the first place. How could you not be soured by that?


Amy: I don't know. Sometimes you seem like nothing sticks to you, so I had to ask.


Mario: I mean it's a good story and all, and she wasn't even the star. But to have your 2nd place finisher refuse to do media or answer fan questions, that kind of sucks. And yes, a lot sticks to me, but only if I place importance on it in the first place.


Amy: She may not have been your designated star by the end of the story, but she had a large fanbase waiting for her silence period to end.


Mario: Oh yes. She basically had two stories worth of fan questions waiting for her... still does, actually. The door is still wide open if she cares to return, but I doubt she will. Sometimes she plays emotionally too, I guess. She and Matt and Ryan actually left their cast hanging. This is the first time a lot of them will read that their story got cancelled. Sorry guys! I didn't mean to cancel it!


Amy: All hate mail can be sent to MLanza1974@aol.com


Mario: Oh yes, CC it to isabella. :-P But yes that's the story behind me and Isabella. A sad ending to a once formidable pairing.


Amy: That is sad. I know you two were close for quite some time.


Mario: We were. But apparently not anymore. I'd have to ask.


Amy: You've said that this is essentially your version of an All-Star game. If you had to choose 7 members of this cast to be on a tribe with, who would it be and why?


Mario: Seven members? Hmm... Who would I pick.. Murtz, because Murtz is team loyal. He will always be by your side if he respects you. Lance, same reason. Joni, because she doesn't target people. Matt, because he's an 18 year old version of me. Ryan, because he's an evil version of me. You, because you're Aaaaaaaaamy. And a seventh would be... Elisabeth. She's fun. I would basically want seven people who WOULDN'T target me. Above else, I want to be safe. Hence no Chris... he'd murder me.


Amy: Good luck on trying to be someone both Murtz & Lance can respect at the same time.


Mario: And if anyone could pull of the Lance-Murtz crossfire gambit, I think I could, maybe.


Amy: That'd be interesting to see. If anyone could pull that off, I'd respect it. They're just so different, beyond the loyalty thing.


Mario: But look at it this way, I'm almost exactly like Lance in real life (married with small kids). But at the same time, Murtz thinks I am just like him. So maybe! I'm a Lance playing a Murtz. That's my sig line.


Amy: Heh. And a Ryan/Matt love child.


Mario: There's a reason Matt and Ryan are so close... they aren't that different.


Amy: Nope. They both have a twisted sense of humor, an appreciation for the obscure, and a love for horror. It's scary to get the two of them together.


Mario: Plus I think that deep down, they may be the two kindest people in the game. Neither will admit that though.


Amy: Since you're going to put labels on people, would you like to go ahead with the word association?


Mario: Absolutely.


Amy: Wildest.


Mario: That's easy. Chris.


Amy: *grin* Smartest.


Mario: Well we all know that you're in Mensa, so the answer should be pretty easy... Ryan. :-P


Amy: I so knew that was coming.


Mario: I know, I know... Seriously, everybody says you or Isabella. Both work, but people forget about Ryan.


Amy: I said Ryan.


Mario: And there are a lot of smart players, but I still say Ryan.


Amy: You just want to agree with the Mensa member.


Mario: Ryan outsmarts himself.


Amy: That he does! Wittiest?


Mario: Hmm, probably Christopher. A little over the top, but always made me laugh.


Amy: Most out of touch with reality?


Mario: Well the standard answer is Henry... but he's not even in the same REALM as reality. So it's like apples and oranges. I'll say Beth.


Amy: *grin* You know, you're right. Nobody else has really caught that. Funniest?


Mario: Yeah Henry is actually out of touch with fiction even. Funniest? Definitely Christopher.


Amy: Most likely to be cast on the real show?


Mario: You or Christopher.


Amy: Is it true that Christopher was actually an alternate for one of the previous seasons, or is that just a fun rumor?


Mario: It's true as far as I know.


Amy: I hadn't heard it straight from him, so I didn't know for sure.


Mario: He doesn't want me talking about it, so I would say true.


Amy: Okay, who was the most annoying?


Mario: Well, there were three who constantly got on my nerves, all for different reasons...


Amy: Uh oh. *laughs*


Mario: Henry, Beth, Isabella.


Amy: Oh!


Mario: Not even you!


Amy: Wow, I thought I was a shoo-in!


Mario: You're an amateur in this game, my friend.


Amy: Do you want to explain your answers, or just leave them to speculation?


Mario: Um... which would hurt worse....? Uh oh... I'll be kind and explain. Henry was just a troublemaker, can't add any more than that. Except I think he expected special treatment since we knew each other pregame. He seemed incredibly taken aback that I was friends with other people here too.


Amy: He actually blasted you for that once or twice, didn't he?


Mario: Oh yes, he tried many times. He knew better than to start a full on war with me though. People with sticks don't start knife fights. Beth I was annoyed with for three reasons. #1, I didn't like the way she handled herself at the end, I thought it was incredibly immature and a poor role model for the younger players.


Amy: You mean with the penis carvings?


Mario: Yeah. I was like, you're 43! Don't do that in front of 15 and 16 year olds! That fact never seemed to cross her mind.


Amy: Okay... although the youngest person on her tribe at the time was Matt, who actually carved them for her...


Mario: He did, but Joni was in the game, and I already had flak from Joni's parents about not wanting her to be in it at all. And her actions should never have been dictated by someone old enough to be her son. It was like if Matt says it's okay, then that means she can do it. But she also set a few limits on things I could put in the story about her, and I didn't like that. If it was in the game, it should be in the story!


Amy: She set limits? Successfully? How come nobody else managed to do that?!


Mario: Well there were some personal details that she didn't want people to know, and being a nice guy, I said okay. But it didn't mean I liked it. Basically me keeping out part of Beth's personal life ending up cutting huge plotlines from Isabella and Mike's stories because they revolved around people knowing this. So it ended up hurting the story, and I hated it. And #3 Beth sniped a lot about her portrayal in the story and it always got back to me. So she was always a thorn in my side from that perspective.


Amy: So that irritated you, that you left that part of the story on the cutting room floor to protect her personal details.


Mario: Yeah it irritated me that #1 I sabotaged part of the story just for her and then #2 I got flak about how I wrote her character anyway! Once I heard that, I just didn't care, I didn't even try to appease her anymore after that.


Amy: Since we're already here, I might as well ask it... The word "editing" has been thrown about quite a bit among the cast, and the readers as well. Tell me who you edited, if anyone, why you edited, and how heavily you edited. In other words, were your characters really your cast members?


Mario: Oh yes, the only things I really changed were for clarity purposes usually. Like if ten people took credit for something, I just attributed it to one of them. Pissed people off, but it reads better that way.

Let's go one by one. Elisabeth, I don't think I edited at all. She didn't have a clue how much she tore people apart. She really was just there to make friends. Danielle wasn't around enough to edit. Her story was only relevant as to how it affected others. And she has since said that if she hears the word "Danigate" again, she will punch somebody.


Amy: *laughs* I don't blame her.


Mario: Henry I actually made more likeable I think. I knew he would hate the episode where he left, so I at least made him look like a nice guy. David I didn't change much. He didn't give me much so I had to make him kind of flat. I never got much emotion or arc from him. Murtz was pretty accurate. He never had any idea how perilous his situation was. So he didnt agree with his portrayal, but it was all pretty accurate. Christopher I think was letter perfect. I didn't show his softer side, but that wasn't really relevant to the story. It was implied that he and Joni were friends, I didnt have to show every instance. Beth I felt was quite accurate. She obviously disagreed, but by then I had stopped caring. Ryan was hard to capture. He always outwitted himself and made simple things complex. I tried to make him mysterious but he came off kind of vague instead. Hogan was a simple character, easy to capture. Matt too, I thought I got him close. Lance I got down pretty well, even if Kamiya never did "get" him. Joni I did well with, but so many people slammed her, I couldnt do much to salvage her. The audience and cast wanted to hate her.


Amy: The disadvantage of having those booted tell their stories first.


Mario: Michelle I think I got well. You and Isabella I felt I got down pretty well. And Mike I did okay with but he's so hard to capture. He's all over the place personality-wise. For the record, I cut down Isabella more than ANYONE. She got shafted in the editing, just to make her less obvious as a F2. I toned her down pretty good for a few reasons: #1 So the cast wouldn't revolt. And #2 since she was so uncooperative in sending in confessionals I just didn't have a whole lot to work with all the time.


Amy: Especially toward the end, I assume.


Mario: Yeah. She was really bad towards the end. I had to specifically ask for stuff I needed. "Isabella can you send me your thoughts on Michelle?" "Isabella can you send me your voting comments for Joni?" Stuff like that. But to be fair, she kind of got demoralized that I wasn't including all her earlier stuff. Once she realized I wouldn't use every chat she sent me, she kind of got bummed out and stopped sending so much.


Amy: Did anyone else slack off on sending you things toward the end of their stay? I mean, did you witness burnout?


Mario: Not really. Most everyone kept up pretty much the same schedule all along. You kind of slacked, but you also sent so much at the start it was only natural.


Amy: Yeah, I was a slacker, but you could've written my confessionals for me at the end.


Mario: For those of you interested, Amy sent a running line-by-line commentary of EVERY chat she ever had. She just went along and commented on each chat for about 21 days.


Amy: MST-style.


Mario: Hi-Keeba. One more thing about Isabella... this isn't widely known. She had a subplot with Beth that got cut entirely, due to Beth not wanting me to share certain details about her personal life.


Amy: Right, you touched on the personal life thing with Beth earlier...


Mario: It was a big part of Isabella's strategy, and she was pissed that I cut it out. That's kind of the issue with people requesting I not put certain things in the story; it affects others.


Amy: Oh, so Isabella was mad about that?


Mario: Yes, Isabella was furious. I would have been if I was her. It cut out about 20% of her midgame strategy, so I understood.


Amy: I can understand that too. And having Isabella breathing down your neck about it must've added to your own irritation.


Mario: Oh yes. She's a good friend but (like most everyone) she was very concerned how she would come off in the story. She knew not to push me too hard, but I certainly heard about it when she didn't like something I wrote, or didn't write.


Amy: I thought most of us were that way.


Mario: Of course.


Amy: Some more vocal than others, of course.


Mario: I wouldn't cast people if they weren't narcissists!


Amy: *laughs* Hear that, cast? We're all narcissists.


Mario: Yeah some never complained. Lance, Ryan, Joni never complained... Well, the narcissists outweigh the non-narcs. We'll just leave it at that.


Amy: *grin* Sounds good to me. Let's go left-field for a second...


Mario: Ok...


Amy: In Okinawa, we all got to choose our luxury items.


Mario: Well kinda. You sent me a list of 5 and I chose. I more or less made some people take some stuff, like Matt with the hockey mask and Elisabeth with the teddy bear.


Amy: Knowing the cast as well as you do now, select the ideal luxury item for each member.


Mario: Heh. Ok, this will be kind of random. Elisabeth... soccer ball (No teddy bear. Single moms hate teddy bears!) Danielle... An uzi. Full clip. And it would have been empty when she left.


Amy: *laughs* Oh, man... in your world of Survivor only. I guess it just says no physical contact in the rules, no mention of assault weapons.


Mario: Yeah assault weapons were not only legal in Okinawa, they were actually encouraged. Henry... Copy of Romeo and Juliet. David... um... the American Flag actually suited him well. We'll keep that in place. Murtz... Bottle of Chill Pills. Possibly Xanax. I was gonna say donuts but I value my life.


Amy: *laughs* Yeah, he might take offense.


Christopher... Friendship beads to only hand out to Michelle and Joni. "Fuck You" beads for everyone else. Beth... A framed picture of Amy


Amy: Awww... for her days on Kamiya?


Mario: Yeah. Since Matt destroyed her, you were all she had left!


Amy: Matt destroyed her by throwing her in front of the train, so to speak?


Mario: Yeah.


Amy: Okay, just making sure I hadn't missed anything.


Mario: Ryan... A copy of Latin for Dummies and Shakespeare's Tragedies for Dummies


Amy: Perfect.


Mario: Matt... A severed body part. Any kind.


Amy: Still bleeding.


Mario: Is there any other kind?


Amy: By day 20-something? Um, yes?


Mario: If anyone could keep it moist and pulsing, Matt could. Anyway...


Amy: Lovely thought. *shudders*


Mario: Hogan... Toilet paper. 'Nuff said. Lance... Waterproof, dirtproof, vinyl 100% protective buff container. To protect the green. Joni... Neleh's "Oh my heck" and "This sucks" baseball caps Michelle... A morning star. Or some other bludgeoning weapon. Preferably medeival.


Amy: Two Kamiyas with weapons. That scares me.


Mario: Amy... Coconut Bra, naturally.


Amy: Hey!


Mario: Sorry. Had to go there.


Amy: It better be properly sized.


Mario: We'll let Henry size it. Isabella... A silver medal.


Amy: Oooh. Ouch, Mario.


Mario: Oh come on, it's funny. Mike... The Gnome. You can't have Mike without the gnome. Although technically Mike could have brought Joe, to help with strategy... want me to elaborate on that? I bet nobody knows about this.


Amy: Go ahead, do what you will.


Mario: Okay. Well, this kind of implicates you too, since this is your beef. But since Okinawa is long over, what the heck, right?


Amy: Sure, implicate me. Like you haven't already or won't again.


Mario: Haha! Anyway... When Mike won the F3 immunity, he was kind of hemming and hawing over who to take to the F2; you or Isabella. And I remember he made the unfortunate decision during the final TC to say WHY he chose Isabella. He said "Well, I was talking with Joe and Joe reminded me that I have a compulsive need to always win." And I remember you were furious when he said that.


Amy: That's imbedded in my brain. *laughs*


Mario: Amy harped on this for a long time. "Joe wasn't even there. How could he have talked to Mike?!"


Amy: I still do! I'm too much of a role-player for that to sit well with me.


Mario: So yeah that's my running joke with Amy. Mike had Joe stashed away on the island for last minute strategy advice.


Amy: Yep. Hid him away after the family visit RC.


Mario: Personally I think he would have taken Isabella to the F2 anyway. In my mind there's no way he takes you to F2... unless maybe Joe said to. Just kidding.


Amy: He probably would've taken her no matter what. And it was a good choice for him, since he won.


Mario: Yes he won. Mike won the game fair and square.


Amy: *grin* And Joe would've never told him to take me... although Joe reminding him that he has a need to win feeds my ego.


Mario: Haha... As long as we feed Amy's ego, we all sleep better at night.


Amy: Yes, because it's all about me.


Mario: Wait, this is my interview. Stop your Jedi mind games!


Amy: So? It's about me. *grin* You're just here to talk about me.


Mario: I did that for 13 episodes. When is it ever enough??


Amy: *laughs* Valid, valid.


Mario: You were clearly the best non-Chris character. There you go.


Amy: Ooooh... second fiddle to Chris! Story of my life.


Mario: haha


Amy: So speaking of characters... If you were going to go through this again, would you cast any of the Okinawans a second time?


Mario: Sure, most all of them, but... you do have to remember I see the story from two sides.
1. The ones who are good in the story and
2. The ones who are easy and fun to work with.

So I would take both those into consideration. There weren't too many people who fit into both, but most everyone fit into at least one. So yeah, I'd consider most everyone a second time.


Amy: Who's most deserving of a second chance, from a pure gameplay standpoint?


Mario: Pure gameplay? Well I would say Isabella, but that would kinda be a third chance. But you and Ryan and Michelle and Chris would be close behind. Joni too.


Amy: What about those who claim to be twist victim?


Mario: Which two are those? Murtz and...?


Amy: I didn't think there were just two, but Murtz, Henry, and David have all said it at one point in time.


Mario: Well my general rule is that if you were that great a player, you could have escaped the twist. Not that they were bad players, but I don't think it screwed anyone too terribly. There are ways out of most everything. David's the only one who I think totally got creamed.


Amy: As in, never got a chance?


Mario: Yeah. Everyone else had a fighting chance. You have to remember that Chris and Joni could have EASILY won the game. As for Henry, the twist saved his ass. He has nothing to whine about.


Amy: Chris & Joni were good. And Joni got out of the twist.


Mario: Yeah and Matt did too. Matt and Joni made the least number of mistakes out of all the twist victims, so do the math.


Amy: Valid. I thought for sure that Matt would be the next to go every time Kamiya went to TC, because he kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Joni was always safe, though.


Mario: Yup. She was the Amber. Trash Amber all you want, but she won.


Amy: I have a question in particular about her, actually... how would you classify her gameplay? Is it UTR, is it Sandra-like, is it a follower's game?


Mario: Well, Joni won't switch sides, so she isn't Sandra. It's not really UTR because she is friends with everyone. It's more of a follower's game, but some of the best players have done that. I would compare it most to Amber in All-Star... either that, or T-Bird. On good terms with everyone. Or Ethan.


Amy: All generally respected players, yet Joni got blasted. What do you think the reason is for that?


Mario: 1. Her age 2. She was my favorite player 3. She was an Angel and everyone hated the Angels. People tended to think the Angels were snotty. So when the Angels raved about Joni, she was doomed. Plus you had Hogan and Lance and Murtz all badmouthing her before she left the game. She never had a chance. And of course, the chip on her shoulder the size of Rupert. It's tough to write around that.


Amy: Nice visual. *grin* You've heard the cast talk about their need for decompression time after the game finished. What about you... did you need decompression time? (If so...) When did you finally get it, since you've had to write the episodes for months after the game's completion?



Mario: Ha. Yeah, I definitely needed decompression time. The only problem is that as the writer, you just don't get it! The story starts up almost immediately after the game ends. So there wasn't much time for me to just sit around and relax. I had to start Okinawa ASAP because All-Star Survivor was starting in February. I wanted to make sure my story had an audience through at least three or four episodes before the real show came in and dwarfed everything else. So I never got the decompression time that the cast had. I never got a break until the story ended in mid-May. That kind of sucked, because it means I was essentially caught in a game without a break (or any rest whatsoever) from early October until mid May. That was almost eight months of my life. The cast got to relax after two months!

If you're ever wondering why I say to never run a game like this, that should spell it out for you pretty well.


Amy: Which game do you think was tougher: Tonga or Okinawa?


Mario: Okinawa. It was a lot more cutthroat. Tonga was fun and hard and all but was never really that hardcore. I mean I got a lot of flak for playing hard and making enemies in Tonga, but the whole cast was playing like me in Okinawa! Tonga was like Pulau Tiga and Okinawa was like Australia. It doesn't make the players any better or worse, it just means there was an evolution along the way.


Amy: Do you think any Okinawan had an easy ride to the endgame, or did they all have to fight to get there?


Mario: Well nobody ever coasts to the end in Survivor. There's a certain point where everybody has to fight for their survival. It just happens early for some players and late for others. So I think everybody had to fight. This IS an individual game, after all; it's not a team one. Mike and Isabella had to struggle as much as anybody, both of them had extremely hard and stressful games at times. Mike in particular.


Amy: How do you think you'd have fared against this cast?


Mario: I think I would do pretty well because I can get along with most anyone. So much of the early game is based on who annoys you and I am pretty good at fitting in with a group. You can ask anyone from Tumutumu, I was never a target at the start, simply because everybody liked having me around. So as for early game... the only way I would have been targeted is if they knew who I was and had a vendetta against me. If it was just based on 16 strangers living together, I could fit in most anywhere.

I don't think I would have won, for the same reason I don't think I could have won Tonga. It's simply because I don't always play for the win. I play to amuse myself, to make the story memorable, and to make people laugh. And by people I mean making me laugh (and hopefully the audience). So I don't always have the eye for the prize that I probably should. I'd do well, I wouldn't take myself particularly seriously, I'd make unbelievably ballsy moves just to throw people off their game, and I'd probably throw away an easy win just for the sake of avoiding a boring Pagonging. As always, I'd be frustrating to play against. I doubt I would win, I'd probably end up on the jury, but at least I'd be fun.


Amy: *grin* I could see that. Would you ever consider playing in another Survivor game?


Mario: Of course. As long as they don't interfere with the end of Okinawa, I'd love to. In fact if Matt and Isabella bring their All-Star game back in September (as I often suggested), I'd be there in a heartbeat. You have to remember that none of the Tongans got our story told. We'd still all like to see ourselves in print someday, and I'm no exception...


Amy: If the All-Star game came back in September, I'd be on board too. I was always kind of unsettled by the way things ended with the original attempt... Do you think anything is missing from Okinawa as a story, or did you successfully create the ultimate package?


Mario: If it was missing, I just made it up.

By that I mean I made Sato more good then they probably were, just for some sort of yin-yang effect with Kamiya. But as a whole I don't think the story was missing any elements. Sure, we could have used a more fan-friendly winner, but that's just the way the game works. If you understand why somebody won, it doesn't mean you had to be rooting for them. I would have done that differently in a fiction story but the story certainly works either way, so long as you see it all in context from day 1 to day 39. The story ended the way it should have, it's as simple as that. And I hope I created the ultimate package. As always, I can see the flaws that I would love to do over (the way Kamiya ruined the twist, letting Beth sabotage her character, some of the challenges that were hard to read). But I think this is about as complete a game/story package that we'll ever see online. From firsthand experience I know it will be pretty tough to top.


Amy: If you could go back, what would you do differently in running the game? What about in writing the story?


Mario: Well, I just named a few of the game problems. I would change the tea twist so Kamiya had to work alone, or at least tell them to roleplay and stop trying to outsmart the game. I would make Beth go out with more dignity than she did. I would come down harder on the Kamiyas (Michelle in particular) for the way they tended to bend the rules on working together. I would set firmer limits on Isabella and make sure she sent in all her stuff on time. But as a whole the game decisions were pretty solid. It's tough to second guess any decisions that I made for the first time in my life. It's all a learning experience along the way.

As for story, I would definitely make it shorter. I was just too much of a wuss about cutting people's confessionals and chats, I didn't want to hear people bitching about how I cut their best stuff, so I left almost all of it in. I think I cowtowed to the cast too much. As a writer you shouldn't give a rat's ass about what your cast wants to see in the story. And despite the image I try to portray... I DO tend to care about what my cast wants to see. So rather than make some tough cuts and make the story leaner, I left everything in just to make everybody happy. If I could do that over again, I would love to cut the story by about a third. And then just turn off my IMs and email and not let the cast have any access to me while I write. That probably would be ideal in a story like this.


Amy: A lot of friendships blossomed among the cast, both in and out of the game. Which ones surprised you the most?


Mario: I'm surprised that Hogan and Joni are actually dating in real life now! Just kidding. I'm not surprised by any of them really. Going through a game like Survivor is like surviving a war. You are bound to your comrades because of the common struggles and hardships you had to face together. So I'm not really surprised by any of them. Even people with very little in common (Michelle and Joni, Beth and Matt) can have a common experience to talk about and relive. Of course I don't think that any of the relationships will last that long. Once you take away the commonality of Okinawa, people eventually realize they really don't have that much in common. It happened with Tonga, happens with most all of the Survivor casts, and will happen in just about every game like this. The friendships are fun but eventually people kind of drift back to their real lives. Happens every time.


Amy: Which cast members did YOU develop friendships with?


Mario: Well I was pretty good friends with a lot of them during the game. You obviously were probably my closest among the cast, but I was friends with Joni, Christopher, Elisabeth and Matt, among others. Murtz and Isabella I knew before the story of course. Henry I knew before too, though we were never really friends or anything.

I knew I was supposed to keep my distance from the cast (for game reasons) but I also knew I had to get to know them (for story purposes). It's an odd dichotomy when you run the game AND write, because the stuff you need as a writer can get in the way of what you need for the game. But since the story always came first for me, I would pick favorites and get to know them during the game, since I had a pretty good idea who the stars were going to be. I knew people would probably complain, but all I cared about was making sure my stars were realistic and fun to read about.

There were a few who I thought I would be good friends with but it never happened. Ryan was one I was sure would be really fun to talk to, but we rarely chatted during the game. Like me, he tends to keep his distance from people online, so he never really got wrapped up in trying to make friends. He wasn't around much, nor is he now. He has always been a detached obersver of all things Okinawa.

Lance is another example who I was sure would be just like me. He's also a married parent under 30 (well okay I just turned 30). But he has small kids, he has a sports background too and in theory he should be just like me! I expected we would have a lot to talk about. But I have to say I probably spoke to Lance less than anybody else in the game. He was as cold and distant to me as he was to anybody, and I took it as he just wanted to be left alone. Either that or he wasn't who he said he was (which I still can't entirely rule out.) But in either case, Lance and I are almost exact clones on paper. But for some reason we never really had anything to talk about.


Amy: Of course, you know I'm a big Lance advocate, even now. I just think he was really hard to get to know, but worth it. And as for Ryan... I don't see him much, but he's one of my favorite cast members. Anyway... What did you learn about yourself throughout this project?


Mario: First off I learned I have incredible organizational skills. I never thought I did in real life, I am usually too lazy and too slipshod to keep meticulous notes and keep folders, chats, transcripts, etc. But with Okinawa I had an incredibly detailed folder system set up. Everything was cross-referenced, everything was summarized, it was pretty cool when it came time to write the story. I never thought I could ever pull off something that organized.

I ALSO learned that I care about what other people think too much for my own good. I always try to come off as distant and uncaring, I love the fact that people think they can't sway me in arguments. In fact when Isabella came after me for dropping out of All-Star, she had a hard time knowing where to attack because everyone has this idea that I don't give a crap about anything. But the fact is that I put way too much emphasis on just keeping the cast happy and I think it made the story a little weaker than it could have been. I should have distanced myself from everyone much more than I did. The cast shouldn't have had any input whatsoever, because the players don't sit and watch the producers edit the show in real life! I shouldn't have given people keys to the editing room and that was totally my fault. I try to please people too much and it ends up being more work for me.

I learned that I can phone in certain episodes and nobody seems to notice. And that isn't me trying to brag, I'm actually a little embarassed about it. But there was a lot less crafting and love and detail put into the writing of Okinawa compared to Greece, Alaska, and Hawaii. It was almost all one draft, written from start to finish, no heart whatsoever. The early episodes in particular were written almost entirely without joy, it was just me trying to push out a project on time and make people happy. But since I've written three of these stories by now, it means I'm pretty good at knowing what I need to write. So I learned I can kind of skate by and nobody will really notice. And I think knowing this made me lazier as a writer. So whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I've figured out the absolute minimum I have to do and still make it come out as a good story.

This doesn't apply to every episode, of course. There were certain ones I made sure to make perfect (Isabella turning on Ryan in ep7, Henry's downfall in ep3, Joni getting screwed in ep12, the Christopher-Amy blowout in ep6, the finale). But I think there were far fewer "perfect" episodes in Okinawa than there were in Greece or (particularly) Alaska. I just didn't have the time or the energy to craft everything to my 100% satisfaction.



Amy: Finally, would you encourage anyone else to take on something like it?



Mario: Nope. To quote Carl Bilancione, you'd have to be a fool and an idiot to try something like this. And that's not me trying to avoid competition and ripoff projects (I couldn't do that if I tried). That's me giving an honest answer from someone who just finished a HUGE MASSIVE GIGANTIC project. It's way too much work, it's almost impossible to please real cast members, and the audience really isn't there compared to an actual fiction story. It sounds harsh but the audience doesn't want stories about online Survivor fans. They want stories about real Survivor players. So it was fun to do once but I don't think the payoff justifies the effort on a project like this. I am proud of how it turned out but I don't think it's something that people should be encouraged to do. It's kind of unhealthy for everyone involved (writer, host, players). And I really wouldn't encourage anyone to run OR play in one of these things. Of course that being said... there are approximately 74 All-Star games and 168 Okinawa sequels currently being run or in the works. So be sure and join your favorite(s) today!


Amy: But just a few minutes ago you said you'd play in another game in a heartbeat! Why, if it's as unhealthy as you claim (which for the record, I think you're right)?



Mario: Well I'm a special case. I played but I never got to read my f-----g story! Along with the rest of the Tongans, I feel like I got screwed out of my story by a writer who didn't give a shit. So I would play again but only if I knew and trusted the host and that I was 100% certain it would get done. So I'd be picky. VERY picky. I'd only play to get a story out of it. That would be my only rationale.


Amy: I don't think anyone can argue that the project has been extraordinary. Congratulations on pulling it off.
Thanks for taking the time to chat with me. This was by far the longest interview I've done!


Mario: Thanks, Amy.


Amy: And that's it, folks. Thanks for reading, and for being a part of it all.



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